New Games on Old Platforms

**Jay Snellen** · 07-06-2003, 09:49 PM

Hello Shane and Company,

I hope this isn't too far off-topic for this forum, but here goes: I'm thinking about getting into game programming, but instead of developing games for a new hardware platform (PCs, current-generation consoles, etc.), I'm actually toying with the idea of learning one of the classic consoles and developing one or more games on that as a number of other programmers have begun doing. I've been impressed by several of the games they've produced, and as a computer science student, I think that developing for older, more limited machines would be a great way to hone my programming skills and learn to produce small, highly-efficient code (all they teach us in school is Java and C++, and I don't want to graduate and create bloatware for a living if I can help it!)

I know you've briefly mentioned the "homebrewing" trend on your show before, and I'm curious to know what you think about it. Do you think writing for older machines is a worthwhile endeavor, or do you think my efforts would be better-spent on a newer platform?

**Shane R. Monroe** · 07-06-2003, 11:12 PM

I think it all depends on what you're in it for.

If you're in it for fame and money, don't do it.

But I think it would be very worthwhile to the community and to yourself!

**Bill_Loguidice** · 07-07-2003, 07:32 AM

I think some of the most exciting homebrew is in fact for older systems, particularly the old Atari consoles. Check out www.atariage.com if you're not already familiar with it, as they cover and in fact distribute homebrew stuff for the Atari 2600, 5200 and 7800. There's tons of documentation out there as well. John Dondozilla was one of the first to ignite the hobby programming craze, creating new Vectrex games. He later went on to ColecoVision and Odyssey2.

Maybe when I get a few PC projects under my belt, I'll try to get into classic console development, but it's more intimidating if you don't know "real" programming. There are TONS of materials available online though for reference. The coolest part is that not only is some of the hobby stuff as good as the best games from the era, but some is even a bit better since many of the programmers have the benefit of modern hindsight/accumulated knowledge.

Keep us informed of your efforts!

**Jay Snellen** · 07-07-2003, 11:24 AM

Thanks very much for the encouragement!

The first time I looked at AtariAge, I was struck by how many 2600 and 5200 programmers are out there, producing games for twenty-year-old systems. I also admire Carl Forhan at Songbird Productions, who produces new, high-quality games for the Lynx and the Jaguar.

John Carmack said once on Slashdot that there was something noble about writing games for older machines like these because the developers do it purely for the love of programming and creating games, rather than out of some commercial motivation. Nobody's going to make any money doing it, and although I'm interested in sharing what I create, I'm certainly not in it for fame or money. I'm interested in doing it as a learning exercise, as I mentioned earlier, and also to fill a gap that I've noticed: AtariAge has all kinds of resources for 2600 and 5200 programmers, and Songbird and Telegames have the Lynx and Jaguar platforms covered. That leaves only one unsupported Atari console, the 7800, and it's a shame that nobody seems to be doing anything with it. That's probably why I've chosen the 7800 as my development platform of choice, and although it will be a challenge to learn to develop for it, I'll certainly give it my best shot!

**Bill_Loguidice** · 07-07-2003, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by snellenj

... platforms covered. That leaves only one unsupported Atari console, the 7800, and it's a shame that nobody seems to be doing anything with it. That's probably why I've chosen the 7800 as my development platform of choice, and although it will be a challenge to learn to develop for it, I'll certainly give it my best shot!

There are actually games in development for the 7800, but I don't remember off the top of my head how close they are to getting done. You may want to double-check what issues/challenges, if any, there are in doing homebrew 7800 development. I believe I read something where only recently has the encryption/security chip feature of the 7800 been worked around... (the one that checks to see if it's a 7800 game that releases the extra 7800 system power, rather than staying in 2600 mode)

**Jay Snellen** · 07-07-2003, 11:48 AM

I have seen mentions of a few 7800 projects that others have begun, but as far as I can tell none of them have been finished (I could be wrong). I'm just glad that Atari's technical manuals for the 7800 have been scanned and posted; I'll be reading through those this summer before I go back to school.

As for the encryption issue, it has indeed been solved thanks to the discovery of some of Atari's original development tools. I've also modified my console with Eckhard Stolberg's development BIOS, which disables the encryption check and also allows me to upload games from the PC to the 7800 through a parallel cable. So far I've successfully made some 7800 BallBlazer cartridges into RAM cartridges (for uploading games) as well as EPROM cartridges (for non-volatile copies of my games), and I'm hoping I can use the POKEY's audio capabilities to really push the system to its limits!

**Bill_Loguidice** · 07-07-2003, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by snellenj

As for the encryption issue, it has indeed been solved thanks to the discovery of some of Atari's original development tools. I've also modified my console with Eckhard Stolberg's development BIOS, which disables the encryption check and also allows me to upload games from the PC to the 7800 through a parallel cable. So far I've successfully made some 7800 BallBlazer cartridges into RAM cartridges (for uploading games) as well as EPROM cartridges (for non-volatile copies of my games), and I'm hoping I can use the POKEY's audio capabilities to really push the system to its limits!

Are there still sources for Pokey's other than scavenging them from Commando and Ball Blazer Atari 7800 cartridges or Atari 5200 systems? That's something you may want to consider in programming for a POKEY - assuming of course you want to get the thing published...

**Anonymous** · 07-07-2003, 12:38 PM

I wish I knew. Considering how many of them Atari produced (they used them in some coin-ops as well as their consoles and 8-bit computers) I'm sure some of the Atari spare parts dealers have some left in stock, but I've never heard of anyone producing new ones. Then again, nobody seems to be making 7800 PCBs either (yet), so if I ever want to do a limited distribution of any of my games, my best option would probably be to buy up a bunch of BallBlazer carts and replace the ROMs. Or, I could simply leave the POKEY out of games that don't absolutely need it, and cannibalize non-POKEY carts instead. The best candidate for that might be RealSports Baseball, since it's a common cart that has lots of bankswitching hardware and hex inverters that would be useful for large (64K) EPROM games; in fact, I've already successfully produced an EPROM prototyping cartridge using a RealSports Baseball cartridge.

**Jay Snellen** · 07-07-2003, 12:40 PM

Oops ... forgot to log in before posting that one!

Rowdy Rob · 07-07-2003, 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by Bill_Loguidice

Are there still sources for Pokey's other than scavenging them from Commando and Ball Blazer Atari 7800 cartridges or Atari 5200 systems?

Sorry for intruding on this discussion, but th subject is fascinating and puzzling to me. What kind of sound chip does the 7800 use onboard? My initial search through the web turned up nothing on the sound capabilities of the 7800. It seems odd that there would need to be a sound chip on the cartridges, especially an older (but good) one used from the Atari 800!