The Anti-PS3 thread!

[entexman]

The Wii is more powerful than any of the current generation consoles so to say why not just use the PS2 is silly in my opinion. The PS2 was less powerful than the GC and a lot of games were still developed for it that were considered cutting edge. I think the same developers that pushed the PS2 to it's limits to make stunning games could pull off the same trick much easier on the Wii. In the end the power of a system does not mean anything to me anyway. It's the talent of the programmers and how they utilize the power of a system that truly matters.

[nukinetix]

That's what I said.

If you take next-gen power out of the equation (and you might be well justified in doing so) then there is not a whole lot to separate the immensely popular, well established and reasonably powerful PS2 from a newcomer such as the Wii -- at least as far as making versions of traditional hardcore games (existing franchises or new ones) is concerned.

I think Nectar was wondering what will happen to these kinds of real games - as opposed to the "new casual content" aimed at the "new casual audience" - in the true next-gen era, and which platform will become more prominent in this context. This is a question that is, perhaps, only relevant to an increasingly small minority to be honest, but it's a valid question nonetheless.

[entexman]

where's all the traditional games from Japanese developers going to go? Xbox360? No.

I think that was Nectar's question and my answer was why not the Wii? I guess we could also say why bother upgrading at all since neither 360 or PS3 really offer anything new other than higher resolution graphics. I think the traditional types of games could be done on all 3 of the next gen systems and if PS3 does poorly then I could see the Japanese developers shifting to the Wii if the 360 is not a viable platform for them. Since I think the developers would be hard pressed to squeeze any more power out of the PS2 the Wii offers enough more processing power for Japanese developers to continue to improve their traditional games.

[nukinetix]

Yes that was his question as I outlined in my previous post.

I guess we could also say why bother upgrading at all since neither 360 or PS3 really offer anything new other than higher resolution graphics.

That is not a true statemet at all. Higher resolution graphics might be an overused selling point but frankly it's certainly not even scratching the surface of the real differences between a PS3 and a PS2, for example. Like you said, "it's the talent of the programmers and how they utilize the power of a system that truly matters", and in that respect the potential difference between a PS2 and a PS3 is immense. There is (potentially) no comparison whatsoever.

It's not a question of whether the Wii will get ports (or parallel versions) of (some of) these traditional hardcore games. It's that the Wii was never intended to offer an exponential next-gen leap to gaming. That's just not what it is about at all. Of course you could play traditional games on a NES, a SNES and a Playstation 1 just the same. And hardcore gamers did move from the NES to the SNES and from there to the PS. For the hardcore (not casual!) gamer there is a point where they move from what they currently play on to the next generation - the TRUE next generation defined by a combination of both next-gen hardware and software - that re-defines their traditional hardcore gaming experience.

So if you are not a non-gamer or a casual gamer but, instead, a traditional hardcore gamer now waiting for and wondering about exponentially improved next-gen platforms and respective traditional hardcore games on those platforms, then the Wii doesn't provide something that is exponentially different or improved than what you would get on a current PS2 / XBox / GC. A bit better than the current gen, perhaps yes ... but certainly not next-gen in the "exponentially better" sense of the word.

From this point of view Nectar's question made sense.

[entexman]

Well I have not seen anything on the 360 that makes me overwhelmed by the new leap in power and Sony had nothing to show for the PS3 at E3. Maybe this power will show itself in a year or so, but for now I don't see anything to get excited about over PS3 or 360. Now the new Wii looks pretty interesting to me. I guess hardcore gamer to you means raw hardware power. To me a hardcore gamer is someone who likes to play games period. I will take function over form anyday.

[nukinetix]

Well I have not seen anything on the 360 that makes me overwhelmed by the new leap in power and Sony had nothing to show for the PS3 at E3

Well, maybe so, but you said it yourself: "it's the talent of the programmers and how they utilize the power of a system that truly matters"

To me a hardcore gamer is someone who likes to play games period. I will take function over form anyday.

What you mean is that everyone who has fun playing games is a gamer - and that would have to include everyone who enjoys playing golf, tennis, monopoly, poker, solitaire, sudoku and crosswords, for example - and, naturally, most people "take instant gratification and fun over geeky complicated content" anyday.

And that is a pretty accurate statement.

But that's not the point.

The fact remains that traditional hardcore gaming has always been of interest to a geeky minority. At the same time, this very same traditional hardcore gaming has been the dominant (if not sole) definition of videogaming -- at least for a large part of the past 20 years. It is in the very nature of hardcore gaming to grow more complex, more geeky and subsequently increasinly less interesting to the casual "fun seeking" unsophisticated audiences, which of course outnumber the hardcore videogaming geeks by a large margin.

The Wii was never designed as an exponential improvement to the current generation, aimed at geeky traditional hardcore gamers - of which Nectar seemed to be talking about. It may do those games just as well (or perhaps a bit better - but not perceptibly so) than the XBox or the PS2, but it doesnt' provide anything resembling an exponentially improved, true next-gen answer to the hardcore gamer in this admittedly narrow and very specific context.

[Rab Mush]

Why? I just want them to wake up. In fact all they need to do is change a little.

Granted: in many cases you can't change without feeling the pain (the pain of failure in this case - just look at Nintendo).

Because they're stupid.

(I don't know)

[Zaphod]

So if you are not a non-gamer or a casual gamer but, instead, a traditional hardcore gamer now waiting for and wondering about exponentially improved next-gen platforms and respective traditional hardcore games on those platforms, then the Wii doesn't provide something that is exponentially different or improved than what you would get on a current PS2 / XBox / GC. A bit better than the current gen, perhaps yes ... but certainly not next-gen in the "exponentially better" sense of the word.

From this point of view Nectar's question made sense.

Depends on your idea of what exponentially better means? Better graphics? Better AI? Better Physics? Better Control? From my point of view the Wii is exponentially better than the Gamecube, far more so than the PS3 and 360 are from their predecessors.

Far to often we think that games will be better when we have more power to simulate reality and such. I would contend that games are better when given restrictions. Designers are forced to be more creative and make perhaps simpler, but more rich games when given less to work with. Example: Advance Wars. This game would never have come out on anything other than the GBA. The restrictions of the system are part of why the game is so great. Streamline controls to work with basically a D-pad and two buttons.

It's my opinion that much better games would be made if developers were forced to continue using this generations hardware to make games, pushing the hardware and themselves to their true limits. You could do what the Wii is doing on the Gamecube just by releasing the controller for the system. I don't feel ripped off having to pay for a new system, even if it is not that much more powerful, if it helps promote a company that continues to deliver great product. I do think the new branding and sleek design of the Wii are going to help the product tremendously.

You could think of the Gamecube like the DS Phat. Plastic, somewhat cheap looking, but solid on the inside. Then match the Wii with the DSLite. Sleek and sexy with the same great inside. By making it a new console Nintendo forces developers to create new ideas, like with the DS. The could have thrown a bunch of high end hardware into the DS and made a unit just like the PSP, but they didn't and now we are reaping the rewards. On the DS you get new, innovative ideas (Kirbys Canvas Curse, Trauma Center, Lost in Blue, Meteos, Phoenix Wright) while on the PSP you just get PS2 ports. Lumines, one of the best games on the PSP is also one of the simplest, and one you could do just as well on the DS.

It is not new hardware that will lead to "exponentially better" games and experiences, but new ways of thinking.

[Demolition Man]

Sony's 15 year losing track read of proprietary standards

Here is a nice list of proprietary Sony technologies! Alot of them got nowhere!

Well to be honest Minidisc did well as a nichemarket format. SACD has done okay thus far as a high end audio format. And Sony's memory stick format has picked up a bit due to the PSP.

But yeah Sony has had a LOT of failure over the years.

[Darksol]

Well to be honest Minidisc did well as a nichemarket format. SACD has done okay thus far as a high end audio format. And Sony's memory stick format has picked up a bit due to the PSP.

But yeah Sony has had a LOT of failure over the years.

Minidisc really worked well in Japan. Here in the States, it did have a niche market. Minidisc was one of Sony's best ideas.