it's over....

[Danny]

would you guys liked to of known what the UK thought about Bush's victory?

I was gonna scan some new paper front covers but my flat mate threw them away lol...

most fo the papers are saying that it's was a bad thing and that iran is prolly next lol

[Keith_N]

I think Carolyn Parrish (a member of the Canadian govt) pretty much summarized what the rest of world think of Bush's re-election such words as:

- dumbfounded
- "I guess it's a reflection of the profound psychological damage of 9/11,"

You can find more from here

Do you think Kerry should have concede so soon? Already one Ohio voting machine gave way too many votes to Bush?

[Catdaddy]

By the way, for what its worth, I haven't been proud to be an american since the late 90s.

Amen. I'm REALLY not proud to be a resident of Ohio either. This state basically handed the election to Bush on a silver platter. It wasn't a landslide by any means, but they have definitely bolstered my lack of confidence in my fellow man ever doing anything right. If it's any consolation, Michigan will probably beat the crap out of us in two weeks.

[Mogwa]

Why? Because very few people take the time to study history and apply the lessons learned. It amuses me to no end to hear people who never heard of fractional reserve banking theory and cyclic supply dynamics pontificate on government economic policy. The same model holds true on any other subject you might care to name. Rather than posit well researched hypotheses, most of us want to tell the world what we FEEL about any given controversial subject, whether it's abortion or state sanctioned gay marriage. With all due respect, your feelings don't amount to bullspit. Sure, you can espouse them to your heart's content, but don't expect me to respect those opinions as valid statements of fact. Emotional diatribes only make things worse. That's why you'll hear so many "true believers" resort to name calling. Those who disagree with their political views are described as religious fanatics, idiots, zealots, and the like.
It's just that sort of repulsive nonsense that gave us such wonderful moments in human history as the Holocaust and Rawanda. We've never experinced tragedies like that her in America, but it's never too late to catch up. Given the current trends I see in this country demonstrated by a wiilingly ignorant population, I'm certain that interesting times are just around the corner.

[Shane R. Monroe]

You don't have to be an economics historian to understand how to lose $80B in less than a year. You don't have to be a master mechanic to know something is wrong with your car.

The point is: those of us that have followed the issues ... took TIME AWAY FROM WATCHING AMERICA'S TOP MODEL AND THE SWAN to learn about the current issues that plague our country and its administration gives us one HELLUVA bigger foot to stand on and bitch about than people that watch life go idly by and voice their 'options' on items of no bearing to themselves.

This is very simple - you don't have to wax intellectual to get a grip on this. Let me set it up for you...

Your car is broke down. You have two choices for repairs. You can take it to someone who tinkers in their spare time, never worked on your make and model, doesn't keep up with modern electronics in cars, etc. OR .. you could take it to the dealer who specializes in your EXACT vehicle. Where is the trust? Who would YOU rely on to make that decision? Let's take it another step ...

Your kid is dying. Brain tumor. Medical insurance is picking up the tab - so cost isn't the issue. You can have 20 year brain surgeon Dr. Smith work on your child or ... you can get the orderly that sits in and sometimes watches a 'little something' about brain surgery operate on her. This is a NO BRAINER here (no pun intended).

What we are doing is trusting THE REPRESENTATION OF OUR COUNTRY to 'orderlies that occassionally overhear political discussions' who have little to no intellectual thought process over and above programming their Tivo to record Queer Eye for the Straight Guy. THAT is my point. You can say "No one has a valid argument - so why argue". I dare say there ain't a swingin' dick on this forum that knows What's Really Going On(tm) - myself included. But, I spend a dozen hours a week following the issues - looking at them from all sides - TRYING TO MAKE MYSELF INFORMED so that I CAN cast a ballot in at least SOMEWHAT the right direction. I'm doing 100x more than "Joe Q. Public" to be a responsible American. Unfortunately - the RESPONSIBLE American is almost a misnomer now.

Mogwa - what makes you an expert? Truly, if you know something we don't - then SHARE.

Fact is - there ARE some black and whites out there. There ARE issues that are VALID to debate upon that do not require conjecture. Do I have the right to kill you while you sleep? Pretty black and white, right? Do I have the RIGHT to come on to your land and steal what is yours? Black and white. Does the USA have a RIGHT to invade a country for no valid reason and sacrifice 1000+ soldiers for a war even the people we're liberating don't even want? That's pretty black and white.

Sure, there are topics of MORAL issue. However, our government isn't there to stop or control these. Our government was CREATED to separate Church and State for these VERY reasons; religion is NEVER black and white - and they knew there could never be a legitimate governing body that could control these issues. Abortion, stem cells, gay marriage ... these are issues the government simply doesn't have a leg to stand on. Abortion is a matter of symantecs... when is a baby a baby? Stem Cells follow suit on that. Gay marriage is a CLEAR violation of separation of church and state; since our president has told us Jesus told him its wrong.

The problem we have with this country is mainly the blur between VALUES and RELIGION. People don't believe you can have one without the other. And that blurry line is what won Bush this election IMHO. I can believe in the institute of marriage while not believing in God, for example. I can teach my child not to steal, like, and cheat - not because Jesus doesn't like it - but because you wouldn't want someone to steal from you, lie to you, or cheat you - so you do the same.

You should be DAMN HAPPY there are passionate filled people WILLING to step forward and debate and discuss these issues. Without us, life would be worse than it already is.

One thing we can agree on - there are interesting times ahead. And they are going to be unpleasant wake up calls. But like the child that doesn't understand the word NO until its backed up with blisters on a burned hand from a hot stove - the point will get made.

There is one

[crv]

The problem we have with this country is mainly the blur between VALUES and RELIGION. People don't believe you can have one without the other. And that blurry line is what won Bush this election IMHO.

That and the rigging (thank you, optical scan and touch screen voting machines)...

[Shane R. Monroe]

That and the rigging (thank you, optical scan and touch screen voting machines)...

Don't get me started on how THOUSANDS of churchs used their influence to sway their parishioners into voting for Bush. It was so bad, that the NON-PARTICIPATING churches ganged up to prove it wasn't them and to condemn the practice.

Man I was pissed when I read that...

[WorknMan]

You guys have it all wrong...what happened was the religous nuts who are anti-gay marriage, anti-abortion, pro-religon in every facet of government affairs

Bryan is exactly right - 18 million people who voted for Bush did so because of moral issues. It's too bad really, since Bush is about as fake of a Christian as you can find.
I have to admit though, it was a brilliant campaign run by the Republicans. If you can't make people afraid of terrorists, make them afraid of homosexuals. Karl Rove should be proud.
This is the first election I have ever gotten involved in and if there's one thing I've learned, politics basically boils down to this:

Secular America vs Religions America

Arguing about anything else is just ignoring the elephant in the room.

But there has to be a line drawn somewhere. Feel free to follow whatever God you choose but don't push it off on me.

Well, pushing it off on you is what Christians are supposed to do. Jesus didn't say 'Keep thy religion to thyself' - he said to go out in the world and spread it. Of course, I don't think Jesus ever had in mind trying to get anti-gay legislation passed, but I digress.

[Danny]

here is a web link to an english tablod paper called "The Mirror" and it made pretty big statement on it's front cover the day Bush won.

http://www.monroeworld.com/forums/at...hmentid=3&stc=

here is what some americains had to say about the english paper's views on Bushes victory (note I feel like some of the people are complete morons)

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews...name_page.html

Personaly I feel that Bush bangs on about doing the right thing but he breaks his own code and the most sacread of all of christianity's sins "Thall shall not kill!"

P.S: I'm an atheist!

[Shane R. Monroe]

God claims to offer choice; yet his disciples won't stop until they've converted everyone to their way of thinking. This is the TOTAL BASIS of our world's problems (man-made problems anyway).

Jesus also taught us to turn the other cheek ... along with some other decent teachings that have just plain been destroyed by our society. Its not the law we should be looking at - its the SPIRIT of the law we should be looking at. But instead of looking at the teachings of religion as a WHOLE, we have people like Bush acting on some 2 or 3 miniscule passages of the Bible, basing an entire campaign on (and winning I might at) these. Call your local police station and ask how man homosexual couples they go on trouble calls on for domestic abuse. How many gay people slit their partner's throats and kill the rest of the family while they sleep? Man, there are so many bigger fish to fry. Its the gay bashers that resort to violence - not the gay folk. If you want to worry about what image your kids are receiving, how about teaching and showing TOLERANCE, eh?

Its about fad and acceptance in the USA. People can't be individuals - that might get them ostracized and labeled (read up on Columbine - learn from that). So, they play follow the leader on what they do, what they drive, what they watch, who they sleep with ... Damn man ... What a HORRIBLE world we live in, when you come right down to it. And we're supposedly living "the good life". Imagine all this AND living in a broken down shack in the desert with disease, pestilance, plague, and warmongers all around you?

Life's too short to hate.