Remake and the friendly lawyers!

[stedetro]

I am finally ready to create my first game for the Retro community. I would like to remake the classic C64 game (and my personal favorite) "The Seven Cities of Gold."

NOW, here is the ten thousand dollar question: WILL I GET SUED for remaking a game that I will not charge ANY MONEY FOR?

Stede

[Shane R. Monroe]

I'm not qualified to give you legal advice. However ...

The worst that will happen is:

1) They will send you a cease and desist order.

or

2) They will see how popular you've made the title, dig their copyright out of the closet, make a crappy ass remake, THEN send you a cease and desist, saying you are hurting their product that you made popular again to begin with.

I'd vary the title slightly... The Seventh City of Gold, etc.

[stedetro]

LOL! You are sooo right! You know this industry so well. I surprised they haven't sent Retro Gaming Radio a cease and desist order.

Stede :-)

[xyzzy]

I am interested. Why are so many people interested in remaking old games? Don't flame me yet. I realize who my audience is. I am one of them. But hear me out. There are so many emulators around, reliving the magic of a certain game is usually only a few downloads away. Knowing what a vast undertaking it would be to remake a game from scratch...would it really be worth it? Now if you wanted to remake a few levels of a certain game just for the knowledge and the challenge of figuring out the physics...I could see that. I could also see trying to make a sequel or a new twist on an old game.

Please understand that I am not trying to put anyone down, I am truly curious as to the motive.

If you intend to do such a thing, I highly recommend Game Maker 4.3. If you are willing to depart from the canned click and drag programming and actually get into the code you will find a very powerful gaming language. I have been working on a GTA1-2 style driving game and have met with some success. This is part of the reason for this post. I am making a similar game, but would never bother to recreate the orignal.

What are your thoughts?

[Shane R. Monroe]

I could write a book on the subject.

I think the #1 reason is sharing with others.

Think about it;

Joe Blow isn't going to dowload WinVICE, go find a copy of Dino Eggs, figure out how to load the damn thing, figure out how to configure the controls - all to play a game that no one cares about anymore?

Now .. Take my Dino Eggs project. 3D rendered graphics, great sound - but exact game play ... People will see the screenshot <rolling eyes> and download it based on that. I can get Dino Eggs in front of another generation and they might just give a damn.

THAT is why I do remakes.

[stedetro]

exactly... I am not going to create it pixel for pixel and code for code; that is what emulators are for.

As Shane says on his show and Dark Unicorn Productions over and over again: it is the gameplay I am after.

Today, if they made "Seven Cities of Gold" it would have nothing to do with gameplay but SIMULATION. You would be able to roam around in a ship and face everything a real captain would whether it was fun or not. You would be able to guide your 1st or 3rd person character to the bathroom to take a shit at exactly the precise time a real captain would.

I am looking for the gameplay. That thing that made it A GAME, not a simulator!

See, we don't make games anymore, we make simulations. A game is a set of simplistic rules that you follow for a set period of time with an outcome. Monopoly is GAME, SMALL BUSINESS TYCOON is a simulator.

I want games, not simulators!

Stede

[xyzzy]

This I understand. But I have heard of guys trying to make recreations down to the pixel. I guess if it floats your boat, and you just have to be the guy that made it happen on whatever platform you are working with...I'll buy it. But I wonder if the mission of getting this stuff in front of another generation is one that will meet with more frustration than success. I read of a study not long ago that stated that if you don't get your point/ad/message across in 11 words or less, you have lost your audience. How short is the attention span of someone who just downloaded a game that they found out was 'just some remake of some tired old game.' The younger generation's words, not mine. That sure is an awful lot of love and work to put into something that the younguns are going to quickly delete. Maybe I am just a pessimist, but I would rather put my efforts into a game made by geezers for geezers. This is onne of the reasons why GTA appeals to me. We are all older now. We can handle some different content...

This is an interesting thread. I would like some more thoughts. Do you guys actually have some numbers that say you are reaching the kiddos? I would love to eat my words on this one. Please prove me wrong.

[Shane R. Monroe]

Well, consider the fact that, despite our detest of them, these silly in-name-only remakes make enough money to warrant their continued production, I'd say there is plenty of market - esp. if something is well written and distributed.

Look at the ENDLESS Breakout games that CONTINUE to sell - I swear a new one pops up every day - and people are buying them (this I know and have industry input to back it up).

Let's be honest - there are at LEAST two markets; one that basically buys a game based on how it looks (or what engine its on) and one that basically buys a game for WHAT it is. The former will never run emulation, the latter probably runs emulation more than originals.

I think there is a definite market - but its a very fickle one.


This I understand. But I have heard of guys trying to make recreations down to the pixel. I guess if it floats your boat, and you just have to be the guy that made it happen on whatever platform you are working with...I'll buy it. But I wonder if the mission of getting this stuff in front of another generation is one that will meet with more frustration than success. I read of a study not long ago that stated that if you don't get your point/ad/message across in 11 words or less, you have lost your audience. How short is the attention span of someone who just downloaded a game that they found out was 'just some remake of some tired old game.' The younger generation's words, not mine. That sure is an awful lot of love and work to put into something that the younguns are going to quickly delete. Maybe I am just a pessimist, but I would rather put my efforts into a game made by geezers for geezers. This is onne of the reasons why GTA appeals to me. We are all older now. We can handle some different content...

This is an interesting thread. I would like some more thoughts. Do you guys actually have some numbers that say you are reaching the kiddos? I would love to eat my words on this one. Please prove me wrong.

[Bill_Loguidice]

I am finally ready to create my first game for the Retro community. I would like to remake the classic C64 game (and my personal favorite) "The Seven Cities of Gold."

NOW, here is the ten thousand dollar question: WILL I GET SUED for remaking a game that I will not charge ANY MONEY FOR?

Stede

EA already redid an anniversary edition (which I have) for the PC years back. There was also a Seven Cities sequel on the C-64, which was panned critically for not really advancing the series as much as it could have and some unfortunate stereotyping.

Seven Cities of Gold back in the day had one of the more beautiful opening screens. The combination of the music and the feather pen were VERY artistic. That certainly sticks out in my mind.

I enjoyed the original game, but got a bit frustrated when it became overly difficult to avoid the natives (they would "pop" in a rather comical way), in turn angering the whole tribe. Perhaps that was the point...

Anyway, since you were kind enough to offer help with my gaming creation attempts, I will return the same offer (from assets to collaboration to whatever). Whatever you need, let me know. I also have the original C-64 game and remade PC games for reference if need be.

Also, definitely make a clever play on the name. Unless you can get the official rights (and quite frankly, why bother), you'd be 100% in the clear with a similar name and some enhanced gameplay (and obviously different game assets)... I think it would be more fulfilling that way anyway...

[Bill_Loguidice]

I am interested. Why are so many people interested in remaking old games? Don't flame me yet. I realize who my audience is. I am one of them. But hear me out. There are so many emulators around, reliving the magic of a certain game is usually only a few downloads away. Knowing what a vast undertaking it would be to remake a game from scratch...would it really be worth it? Now if you wanted to remake a few levels of a certain game just for the knowledge and the challenge of figuring out the physics...I could see that. I could also see trying to make a sequel or a new twist on an old game.

Please understand that I am not trying to put anyone down, I am truly curious as to the motive.

If you intend to do such a thing, I highly recommend Game Maker 4.3. If you are willing to depart from the canned click and drag programming and actually get into the code you will find a very powerful gaming language. I have been working on a GTA1-2 style driving game and have met with some success. This is part of the reason for this post. I am making a similar game, but would never bother to recreate the orignal.

What are your thoughts?

I agree, it unecessary to make a clone for a lot of reasons (a version already exists, the effort can better placed elsewhere, it's someone else' idea, etc.). However, making an enhanced update is a different story. It's essentially the idea of making a modern day sequel that still (hopefully) retains the key components of the original classic game. Chances are, that kind of game will NEVER be made in the mainstream, leaving the "duty" up to enthusiasts such as ourselves. It sounds like you feel the same way. I think we all do, basically.

[Bill_Loguidice]

...

If you intend to do such a thing, I highly recommend Game Maker 4.3. If you are willing to depart from the canned click and drag programming and actually get into the code you will find a very powerful gaming language. I have been working on a GTA1-2 style driving game and have met with some success. This is part of the reason for this post. I am making a similar game, but would never bother to recreate the orignal.

What are your thoughts?

Game Maker 4.3? I just went to their official site. Looks neat! Geez, between The Games Factory/Multimedia Fusion, Blitz Basic, Dark Basic and now Game Maker, the choices are so varied and confusing. I like the "free" in Game Maker. I'm putting as near 100% of my efforts into Blitz Basic 2D as possible, but I'll definitely be giving Game Maker a spin and to a lesser degree The Game Factory (for limited prototyping). Wow!

[Bloodcat]

Why people do remakes?

1: Because the older games don't run on newer systems, or on unavailable systems.

2: To improve the audiovisual components of a really old game to make them more palatable to modern sensibilities.

3: To add or improve on the original gameplay, which might have been flawed, or "A Diamond in the Rough" so to speak.

4: Because they loved the original, and want to give it some tribute.

5: Because they can. Think of it as a programming excersize or such.

[krisjohn]

I'd vary the title slightly... The Seventh City of Gold, etc.
The Lucky Population Centres of Yellow Metal?

[Bill_Loguidice]

...

If you intend to do such a thing, I highly recommend Game Maker 4.3. If you are willing to depart from the canned click and drag programming and actually get into the code you will find a very powerful gaming language. I have been working on a GTA1-2 style driving game and have met with some success. This is part of the reason for this post. I am making a similar game, but would never bother to recreate the orignal.

What are your thoughts?

Just some thoughts related to pretty much all "kit" systems I've come across...

I was tinkering a bit with Game Maker and running some of the created games for it. It seems rather pokey and not very impressive. It's very similar to The Game Factory/Multimedia Fusion (though I think they're better), and I don't really care for those. Somehow games created with these systems all have the same slightly amateurish, sluggish feel (and don't get me started on the sound!). Game Maker seems especially guilty of this... However, for a free product, it's wonderful thing, I just am not terribly interested in any game created on it at the moment (something can change my mind, just like if I tried something that actually impressed me on The Game Factory/Multimedia Fusion (I haven't)). I think these are nice tools for prototyping, but I imagine the best results are still with actual programming languages (and I hope for now that Blitz Basic 2D (close enough to "actual" programming) works for me...)...

[xyzzy]

After writing this Bill, I discovered that this probably needs its own thread. Oh well, here goes. Shane, have you messed with Game Maker?
---------
Notice that I mentioned that you have to depart from the click and drag aspect. The code is really what you want to get at with Game Maker 4.3. When I am working with that system, I pretty much set up a very basic 'shell' with the click and drag stuff, and then concentrate on the code. If you do this, your games won't feel so blocky. Don't be put off by the examples you see either. I feel apprehensive of being critical of the work of others, especially when I am so new to programming myself...but most of the demos and examples you will find for Game Maker are ameturish to say the least. There is one group of guys (no names mentioned) who have banded and even given themselves a name and a website. One driving game they have 'developed' is in its 3rd incarnation and is still terrible. They spent no time on the physics. Don't be fooled.

As I said, I am working on a GTA style driving game. At this stage, I'm still trying to work out the car physics. If you wish I will put a demo up and provide a link. But I have been able to precisely control acceleration, deceleration, braking, skiding...the works. One of the things I loved about the first two GTA's was the sheer 'fun' of just driving around. If you got good you could get to top speed, put your car in a skid and come out facing 180 in the on coming lane for a perfect u-turn to give the cops the slip. I have been able to recreate these physics with the code quite nicely.

And, as you said, 'FREE' is good. Anyhoo, I suggest not dismissing it from the blocky front end and the sophomoric examples. There are a few coding docs available, check em out. And there are a few good examples as well. One guy has made a freaking MMORPG that can handle 500 people per server for crying out loud.

Two things I DONT like about the language:

1: I wish we could depart from the interface, and just write code in a text editor, and get it compiled with a utility. No such beast yet.

2: Not much joystick support. You can make it work with a Gravis Gamepad. I have not tested this, but the docs say that if you assign direction control to the numberpad on the keyboard, it should translate to the 8-way joystick on the pad. Assigning buttons to A,B,C,and D on the keyboard will also get you the corresponding buttons on the pad. This is fine, but this is it. You can't get crazy with throttles, or force feedback, or other brands of gamepads with different button layouts. However, by using this stuff, and the mouse, it would be possible to make your creations work in a homemade arcade cabinet, which is where mine will hopefully end up.

I have not played with Blitz yet. I am interested in your thoughts.

[xyzzy]

Okay, now I know this discussion is in the wrong thread. I just read the war between Flanque and Shane where I thought someone was gonna get a cap popped in his ass. :roll:

Everybody likes to defend their stuff. I will put my two cents in. Bill you stated that your programming experience consists of a little bit of BASIC in highschool already forgotten. I am in the same boat. Programming has eluded me for years. I was always the hardware guru, and I got down with web design. I don't know what my mental block with software design is? HTML and batch files I understand. VB eludes me.

Anyway, me being like you...I have tried VB and Dark BASIC and have come away with my ears ringing. But for some reason, Game Maker has dumbed it down to where I am now programming. The funny thing is, I keep trying to shed the interface, so I can write pure code.

I'm not sure what the change is. Perhaps a light switch has come on in my brain, and I am finally ready to learn a language...I don't know. My plan is this. I am going to 'introduce' myself to as much coding as I can with Game Maker. It's nice not to have to reinvent the wheel. I can do joystick support, load stuff into video memory, change screen resolutions, you name it, all with just a few clicks. Then I free to spend all those hours trying to get the physics and AI just right.

I am hoping to later graduate and play with the big boys in a real language. If you feel you are in the same boat, perhaps Game Maker would work for you for the time being.

[Bill_Loguidice]

After writing this Bill, I discovered that this probably needs its own thread. Oh well, here goes. Shane, have you messed with Game Maker?
---------
Notice that I mentioned that you have to depart from the click and drag aspect. The code is really what you want to get at with Game Maker 4.3. When I am working with that system, I pretty much set up a very basic 'shell' with the click and drag stuff, and then concentrate on the code. If you do this, your games won't feel so blocky. Don't be put off by the examples you see either. I feel apprehensive of being critical of the work of others, especially when I am so new to programming myself...but most of the demos and examples you will find for Game Maker are ameturish to say the least. There is one group of guys (no names mentioned) who have banded and even given themselves a name and a website. One driving game they have 'developed' is in its 3rd incarnation and is still terrible. They spent no time on the physics. Don't be fooled.

As I said, I am working on a GTA style driving game. At this stage, I'm still trying to work out the car physics. If you wish I will put a demo up and provide a link. But I have been able to precisely control acceleration, deceleration, braking, skiding...the works. One of the things I loved about the first two GTA's was the sheer 'fun' of just driving around. If you got good you could get to top speed, put your car in a skid and come out facing 180 in the on coming lane for a perfect u-turn to give the cops the slip. I have been able to recreate these physics with the code quite nicely.

And, as you said, 'FREE' is good. Anyhoo, I suggest not dismissing it from the blocky front end and the sophomoric examples. There are a few coding docs available, check em out. And there are a few good examples as well. One guy has made a freaking MMORPG that can handle 500 people per server for crying out loud.

Two things I DONT like about the language:

1: I wish we could depart from the interface, and just write code in a text editor, and get it compiled with a utility. No such beast yet.

2: Not much joystick support. You can make it work ...

Well, first, let me start out by saying that even though I may be "critical" of others creative effort, it's more from a feedback standpoint than anything (hell, I'll be lucky to come up with anything remotely decent myself). I applaud anyone who takes the time to create something and I have no business in putting their creations down. I should be honest though and say that of the games I've tried - and to be fair, if I download the games from the Game Maker official site WITH comments - I should expect a reasonably decent game, which I have not really found. The creations on the Website do not flatter the Game Maker engine. However, as you say, if you get down to code, I'm sure it can be tweaked nicely. I certainly look forward to your creation and will ALWAYS keep an open mind for any of the creation products, be it Game Maker or Multimedia Fusion or whatever. At this point though, I've been more impressed by Blitz Basic 2D games and performance (I'm still floored by some of the system requirements of some of these relatively "simple" games (regardless of development platform) - damn, a lot of these should be able to run on a 486, yet they require a decent P-III!).

I downloaded and appreciated the Blitz Basic 2D game of Frostbyte Freddie. The graphics don't give me the uglies and the sound is just right. It's tweaked and polished and runs well. I wish there was joystick support, but I can always manually configure my controller (when I do eventually program something, I'll add joystick support if at all possible - or if it's an issue make separate keyboard and joystick versions). The only things I didn't like (putting on my no-business-being-critical-hat for a moment) were when you lost your game the credits that scrolled on the right side overlapping on the score and some of the font choices. Otherwise, to me, this game is very worthy of hard drive space and play time. So obviously Blitz Basic 2D, based on the results of Frostbyte Freddie, is something that could definitely work for me (and if I can get close to half the results that were achieved with FF on my first try, I'll be a very happy camper indeed).

Again though, I'm a non-programmer and will attempt to become a BB 2D programmer. I will do my best. I already have a clear vision and design of the game I want to make, so we'll see...

(And yes, I think this part of the thread should be moved to its own Topic as it very much fascinates me and I would like it continue...)

[Bill_Loguidice]

Okay, now I know this discussion is in the wrong thread. I just read the war between Flanque and Shane where I thought someone was gonna get a cap popped in his ass. :roll:

...

Anyway, me being like you...I have tried VB and Dark BASIC and have come away with my ears ringing. But for some reason, Game Maker has dumbed it down to where I am now programming. The funny thing is, I keep trying to shed the interface, so I can write pure code.

I'm not sure what the change is. Perhaps a light switch has come on in my brain, and I am finally ready to learn a language...I don't know. My plan is this. I am going to 'introduce' myself to as much coding as I can with Game Maker. It's nice not to have to reinvent the wheel. I can do joystick support, load stuff into video memory, change screen resolutions, you name it, all with just a few clicks. Then I free to spend all those hours trying to get the physics and AI just right.

I am hoping to later graduate and play with the big boys in a real language. If you feel you are in the same boat, perhaps Game Maker would work for you for the time being.

That is a valid point and something I'm struggling with myself. I was thinking of prototyping in The Games Factory (at least the first level of my idea) just to "warm myself up" so to speak (and because I happen to have a book that takes you through the thing), then simply go for it in Blitz Basic 2D and work on my opus (which I can do one level at a time, so I can hit a realistic "milestone" every once in a while).

It is VERY tempting to attempt the game in Game Maker first (again, Free and relatively simpler is a VERY nice thing) and see how good it can come, then later "converting" it to Blitz Basic 2D as I got better with it (if necessary). I just don't know. I will admit my experience and situation is exactly like yours - I used to know a drop of BASIC and I know HTML (though have come to rely almost exclusively on GUI editors which make creation faster). Trying to learn Blitz Basic 2D intimidates the hell out of me. It "seems" right, but I could be making a mistake here...

It will still probably be a few days before I get my copy of Blitz Basic 2D, so in the meantime it will give me a chance to monkey a bit with Game Maker, perhaps helping me a bit better with my decision. But again, I'm truly leaning towards at this point just going for BB 2D, and if I crash and burn, so be it. Decisions, decisions, decisions...

[xyzzy]

Mmmmm. If you do wind up getting Blitz 2d, could you post a critique of your experiences? I am VERY interested. I just assumed it would be another language that would make me bang my head on the desk. If you had success, I would reconsider.

[Bill_Loguidice]

Mmmmm. If you do wind up getting Blitz 2d, could you post a critique of your experiences? I am VERY interested. I just assumed it would be another language that would make me bang my head on the desk. If you had success, I would reconsider.

It's already in the mail being shipped so I'm definitely getting it and will be attempting to use it. At some point I may get the one book that's advertised on the site too, if I need it (I'm going to attempt to exploit as much of the online documentation as possible first).

I just saw this today, yet another version of Blitz Basic, this time Blitz Plus, an enhancement I guess of Blitz Basic 2D: http://www.blitzbasic.com/BlitzPlus/about.php

*sigh* I can't seem to keep up anymore. Nevertheless, I've decided to throw my weight being BB 2D and that's what I'm going to do. I'll look into "upgrading" somewhere far into the future.