Make a Game --> Win a GF4

[flanque]

http://www.darkbasicpro.com/retro_compo.php

[Shane R. Monroe]

Shame I just don't like Dark Basic ...

[flanque]

Shame I just don't like Dark Basic ...

No time like the present to give it a go, especially the professional version. It's not like the potential payoff isn't worth it.

:D

[stedetro]

I tried Dark Basic but there is something about it I just don't like. My favorite is BlitzBasic 2D/3D.

Stede

[Bill_Loguidice]

I tried Dark Basic but there is something about it I just don't like. My favorite is BlitzBasic 2D/3D.

Stede

I was considering exploring BlitzBasic. Any "gotchas" in getting BlizBasic 2D? They say it's $50 for the 2D and it comes with books and tutorials and stuff. Is it worth it? I want to create a multi-screen (each level has a different activity) game with a few still cut scenes (to further the story). Assuming I haven't programmed since middle school/high school (and just BASIC at that (AND I forgot it all right after learning it :wink: )) and SUCK mathematically speaking, how likely is this to be something that would work for me?

Actually, I just noticed they have a new book out and have combined it with Blitz 2D as follows, for what seems to be the same price:

"OPTION 2 - Book/CD plus Full Boxed Version of Blitz Basic (2D)!
$49.99 + shipping
Order Here!
-------------------------------------------------
That's right, get the book and the FULL boxed version of the Blitz Basic (2D) language for one low price!
The Blitz Basic 2D boxed version includes:
Compiler
Debugger
Integrated development environment
Documentation
Tutorials
Samples
"

So, recommendations/suggestions? Thanks!

[flanque]

I was considering exploring BlitzBasic. Any "gotchas" in getting BlizBasic 2D? They say it's $50 for the 2D and it comes with books and tutorials and stuff. Is it worth it? I want to create a multi-screen (each level has a different activity) game with a few still cut scenes (to further the story). Assuming I haven't programmed since middle school/high school (and just BASIC at that (AND I forgot it all right after learning it :wink: )) and SUCK mathematically speaking, how likely is this to be something that would work for me?

So, recommendations/suggestions? Thanks!

Well to be honest if you haven't written any code since highschool, and it was only BASIC, then I would highly recommend DarkBasic Professional. It's based on the BASIC language, is super fast, and dispite what others (aka Shane R. Monroe :wink: ) might have you to believe, has excellent fast 2D support. It will easily outpace and outdo Blitz Basic 2D, plus it has a huge 3D support base and free fully active forums.

Then again, if you are familiar with C/C++ then Blitz Basic would probably be your cup of tea.

Why not try the DBP demo? It's free. :wink:

[Bill_Loguidice]

Well to be honest if you haven't written any code since highschool, and it was only BASIC, then I would highly recommend DarkBasic Professional. It's based on the BASIC language, is super fast, and dispite what others (aka Shane R. Monroe :wink: ) might have you to believe, has excellent fast 2D support. It will easily outpace and outdo Blitz Basic 2D, plus it has a huge 3D support base and free fully active forums.

Then again, if you are familiar with C/C++ then Blitz Basic would probably be your cup of tea.

Why not try the DBP demo? It's free. :wink:

I appreciate the advice. However, to be honest, and this may be a bit silly, I really only want to bother investing my time in ONE application, so I REALLY want to make the best choice (I will take your suggestion and try both demos though). I don't want to make 3D games, only 2D, so all the extra features of DBP would seem like a bit of a waste. Also, isn't it like double the price?

Is Blitz Basic seriously like C/C++? From the PR on their Website, they would lead you to believe "anyone can program" (don't they all say that?). I'm not necesarily looking for a drag and drop type of deal like they had for the C-64, or Adventure Construction Set for that matter, but I would like something that is not too much harder than HTML or BASIC (of which I know or have known). Again, the Website PR leads you to believe this is the case.

Any other suggestions?

[stedetro]

BlitzBasic is by far the easiest and best fit for what you want to do...

The language is insanely simple (NO CLASSES, advanced structures or anything like that.)

It is very fast, very portable and a load of fun to learn. Actually it is the closest thing I have ever seen to OLD BASIC.

I will help you with anything you need once you buy it. I will be available through email and I will have tutorials shortly on my site. I can certainly help you through any problems you may face. Maybe we can even collaborate on something together?

Please NO FLAMES or RELIGIOUS WARS though. I don't dislike in ANY way Dark Basic. I actually use Borland C++ and Microsoft Visual Basic professionally and love languages in general but for what you want to do and your skill level this is the best way to go!

Stede

[Bill_Loguidice]

BlitzBasic is by far the easiest and best fit for what you want to do...

The language is insanely simple (NO CLASSES, advanced structures or anything like that.)

It is very fast, very portable and a load of fun to learn. Actually it is the closest thing I have ever seen to OLD BASIC.

I will help you with anything you need once you buy it. I will be available through email and I will have tutorials shortly on my site. I can certainly help you through any problems you may face. Maybe we can even collaborate on something together?

Please NO FLAMES or RELIGIOUS WARS though. I don't dislike in ANY way Dark Basic. I actually use Borland C++ and Microsoft Visual Basic professionally and love languages in general but for what you want to do and your skill level this is the best way to go!

Stede

Thanks! I just downloaded the demo. I'll see how it goes, obviously, but so far it looks like it has potential. A collaboration may be very cool indeed.

[stedetro]

Take it slow, follow the instructions and above all HAVE FUN! Email me with any questions!

Also, after you have the basics down the best way to create a full program (or game) is by doing it with others.

Maybe we can take an old Commodore 64 game and convert it to Windows while adding our own levels and stuff.

Stede

[Bill_Loguidice]

Take it slow, follow the instructions and above all HAVE FUN! Email me with any questions!

Also, after you have the basics down the best way to create a full program (or game) is by doing it with others.

Maybe we can take an old Commodore 64 game and convert it to Windows while adding our own levels and stuff.

Stede

Well, I already have two ideas I wish to explore, one of which is a variation of classic game themes. I do have several favorite C-64 games, such as Raid on Bungeling Bay (too complex for an initial) and Survivor (more manageble I expect).

I was browsing through my book library at this late hour and came across "Awesome Game Creation No Programming Required" by Luke Ahearn. It covers The Games Factory, which is an update to Click N Run (both of which are now superceded by the company's Multimedia Fusion). I've NEVER liked Click N Run or Game Factory games, but I think I can mess around a bit with this book and The Games Factory just to get into the swing of things (perhaps a first level just to test out some ideas/concepts). Once I mess a bit with that, I expect I'll move to Blitz Basic (heck, for the $50 it seems like a nice book/product deal and I like what I see in the demo)...

Regardless, my contact info is on this site. Let's exchange e-mails and keep in touch (continuing this discussion there so this doesn't go further "off topic" - I hate it when that happens). I must warn you, I'm a perpetual project creator: video, Websites, books, articles, art, etc., but rarely find myself following through to the end of anything (even with reading books it seems I always have 4 or 5 going at one time and take forever to finish one (and don't get me started with the dozens of magazines I have at home and work (what does this say about me? :wink: :lol: ))). *sigh* So many wonderful things to do, so little time...

[Shane R. Monroe]

I'm sorry, but when I looked at Dark Basic, I looked at a simple "2D" version of Space Invaders and it ran like ass on a P2/450. Sorry .. that's not FAST ... Again, this was awhile ago ... besides, what I REALLY dislike about Dark Basic is the community. I've never seen a worse group of people joined under a title - I'm probably generalizing, but the hate and discontent in the community didn't please me. A community is at least as important as the product, and the Blitz community rules.

Bill, Blitz 2D is what you want. I still have some copies to sell (I was their US distributor for some time when I built the Blitz Basic community - I'm still in the credits) and I'll hook you up cheap. Can't help you with the book tho.

Blitz is nothing like C. I'm not sure where that came from. The closest thing to C I've seen in Blitz is TYPEs (similar to C's STRUCTURES).

Go through my site www.blitz4pros.com ... check out some samples. Here is one that MANY people have found MOST useful...

http://www.blitz4pros.com/codex/showcode.php?id=27

[HunterSD]

No time like the present to give it a go, especially the professional version. It's not like the potential payoff isn't worth it.

It is like the potential payoff isn't worth it.
One would be much better off developing a shareware game.


It [DarkBasic] will easily outpace and outdo Blitz Basic 2D

DarkBasic does 2D with 3D acceleration. This is bad - imagine Bejewelled requiring a 3D card!

[Bill_Loguidice]

I'm sorry, but when I looked at Dark Basic, I looked at a simple "2D" version of Space Invaders and it ran like ass on a P2/450. Sorry .. that's not FAST ... Again, this was awhile ago ... besides, what I REALLY dislike about Dark Basic is the community. I've never seen a worse group of people joined under a title - I'm probably generalizing, but the hate and discontent in the community didn't please me. A community is at least as important as the product, and the Blitz community rules.

Speaking of hate and discontent and a rotten community, I was checking out some of the The Games Factory and Click n' Play communities. Geez! It's the same reason why I bombard these forums with constant messages - I enjoy the community and other members and never feel like my time is wasted or I have to put up with dreck - the "outside" world is filled with dopes and people intent on making life miserable for others.

Thanks for the other info.

[flanque]

I'm sorry, but when I looked at Dark Basic, I looked at a simple "2D" version of Space Invaders and it ran like ass on a P2/450. Sorry .. that's not FAST ... Again, this was awhile ago ... besides, what I REALLY dislike about Dark Basic is the community. I've never seen a worse group of people joined under a title - I'm probably generalizing, but the hate and discontent in the community didn't please me. A community is at least as important as the product, and the Blitz community rules.

Bill, Blitz 2D is what you want. I still have some copies to sell (I was their US distributor for some time when I built the Blitz Basic community - I'm still in the credits) and I'll hook you up cheap. Can't help you with the book tho.

Blitz is nothing like C. I'm not sure where that came from. The closest thing to C I've seen in Blitz is TYPEs (similar to C's STRUCTURES).

Go through my site www.blitz4pros.com ... check out some samples. Here is one that MANY people have found MOST useful...

http://www.blitz4pros.com/codex/showcode.php?id=27

Man I tell I am going to be the worst in the world with this, but....


Oh Shane come on, you were dealing with Dark Basic v1. The Professional version is FAR superior to the original and as for speed and ease of use, it is the top dog. Talk about holding a grudge. It's FAR more like BASIC than what Blitz2D is. The style of code from what I've seen in Blitz Basic is much more C like. Perhaps this has changed since I last looked, but if memory serves me correctly...

And as for the forums, the morons are now and have been for a while, given ample warning then booted. It's a very nice community now.

Bill if you want JUST 2D then go with Blitz2D.. it's much less like BASIC than DarkBasic Professional IMO. Besides there's nothing requiring you to use the 3D components. In fact if you choose not to use them they are conveniently stripped from the libraries that are packed into the EXE upon the final build so you're executables are not bogged down with unnecessaries...

DBP has an extremely active developer base, even from the designers of the language. They're always extending it and offering package deals, texture packs, model packs, etc.

My best advice is to try both, but from my experience DarkBasic Professional offers the most.

[Shane R. Monroe]

I haven't been out of the hobby coding scene for that long flanque ... And when I was running the Blitz community, we CONSTANTLY had a STEADY stream of people coming to us saying "We tried DB, but the people were horrible to us, so here we are". No grudge - I happily admit I haven't tried it recently.

I'm with Bill on that part of it. I have NO time to use the language I'm proficient in, let alone take on a second one.

And Hunter is right .. despite that fact that MOST people have 3D acceleration, for me to write PONG shouldn't require a 3D card

Its good to have cheerleaders on both sides. I've released 2 complete projects with Blitz now - with three more >80% complete. I wrote the core documentation. I breathed life into the community. I feel the perfect spokesman for the power of the package.

Blitz's weaknesses are SOLEY at the core of the publisher. That is why Dark Basic gets more press, gets more accolades. They don't have what I consider a complete inadequete publisher behind it. I tried to bring Blitz to the masses using every technique I could - and when I finally started reaching people, the publisher pulled it back out of my hands and buried it. Now, of course, they've followed my template and at least Mark is trying to run the show with class and style - he must work 20 hours a day.

The other weakness in Blitz is the IDE which, as I stated before, is slightly better than Notepad (actually, Notepad is better - since it has a RELIABLE undo feature). Mark detached the IDE from the compiler, so now I use UltraEdit with some nice Blitz enhancements. Great third party IDEs are coming like the very sweet PROTEAN IDE (http://proteanide.co.uk/) which will make a Visual Studio environment for Blitz a reality. I'm a beta tester and its already incredible. Shame it requires .NET ... I'll probably never use it in a production environment. I don't trust .NET - and since its basically a 60MB runtime library, I have a hard time subscribing to the concept.

What's nice is that Mark still cares (guess he hasn't made enough money yet) - he'll still write users back, he takes an active role in the community, he implements requests.

By all means - sample what's out there ... when I moved to PC, I never thought I would find Blitz. I went through every language I could get my hands on (DIV, MMF, C&C, etc) and I just wasn't happy until Blitz. Its a great trade off of power, speed, simplicity, and features. Its been used to create commercial products. People with their own tuned-over-three-years C++ graphic engines are turning to Blitz because its faster to code with.

I still don't understand the comparison with C. C scares me. I've never liked languages that are shells that require tons of libraries to be useful. I've always been happier using a dedicated language with the inherent limitation (but less overhead and learning curve) of basically closed-system commands.

[flanque]

Okay well since I haven't gotten into the Blitz community obviously as much as you have it is hard to say that it is or isn't one thing or another. That being said for myself, the same could be said with yourself and the DBP community now. No flames or grunts here, just observations. The operators of forums have tried hard to nick off the morons from the forums (and hopefully the community) and it is now a nice community over there.

From what I recall, you do not need a 3D card to write Pong in DBP. Remember only the commands you use are packed into the distribution you give to people. Sure DB v1 had its issues, most v1.0 products do (ie. Windows ;p), so perhaps one should try the newer product before subscribing to a view which belongs to an old redundant product. Remember DBP was not built on top of DB v1, it is a completely fresh project -- it just uses some of the same syntax for some of its commands.

www.darkbasicpro.com

[Bryan 'KidHype' Smith]

As everyone knows (or should know here) is that I code with Shane as part of Dark Unicorn Productions (shameless plug).

I actively use Multimedia Fusion and Blitz Basic. I will have to admit, the Click community is horrid. That alone will make you want to set your copy of MMF on fire (either that or the nerve of Clickteam to charge for a much needed upgrade to their product. Basically, you pay to beta test their products which NEVER NEVER work out the box) but once you actually get a stable version of a Click product (The Games Factory 1.06 and MMF 1.2, which by the way is what happens after 2 years of patches, YES..it took two years for this thing to run right!) you can actually do some quality development in it. If you hate Object Oriented Programming (which Shane despises) then stay away from the Click products. If you really want to do something of shareware quality, get in there, play with the software, get beyond the canned movements and solutions to problems and you'll actually get somewhere. It's funny, Shane loves my pacman clone Eat and Run and that's developed in MMF. Go figure :)

Blitz in one word is awesome. Too bad it didn't come before Klick and Play (Bill, it's Klick and Play, not Click and Run..hehehe). My whole problem is that I was a 5 year Click vetran when Blitz finally came on the scene and i have to admit, i am very spoiled. I wrote a game called Cotton in Blitz Basic and it was a straight port of a QuickBASIC (not QBasic, this is Basic with a compiler) and it was the easiest port i ever did. I literally was able to go line for line and bring it into Blitz with virtually no problems. Blitz harkens back to the old days of BASICA and GW-BASIC as well as Commodore BASIC to some extent (since they are all based on the M$ Basic language) So if you are familar with those, you dont actually learn Blitz you enhale it and keep going. Whats really nice is that you can pick up any programming primer book on Basic (even VB) and apply the basic techniques to Blitz.

Blitz like C or C++...only if you use types which you don't have to use. Shane and i had a big debate on Array's versus Types the other day (if i knew this post existed, i would have put it in the RGR logs). You use what you are comfortable with. I love Arrays, shane loves Types. You get to choose which is one of the awesome things about Blitz

Dark BASIC, like shane, i used it when it first came out. It was not user friendly but like flanque said, it's changed. So give it a try (since most people dont game on anything less than 1ghz pc's, the speed issues are pretty much moot. You could actually write a game in VB using the core components and not see it suffer in speed)

Thats my 2 cents :)

[flanque]

Okay, KidHype I am with you all the way on the OO programming. It is a far neater and cleaner paradigm to work within. There are just way too many advantages to OO programming. I should know.. I've spent the last five years doing it. Sure structured has that nostalgia feeling, but I mean honestly, how could one smooch structured over OO for regular Windows programming?

Types, arrays, etc... what's wrong with using both? What about an array of types? Hm... more detail on this one KidHype and Shane.

KidHype gave it the way it should be.... try both and see what you like.

[Shane R. Monroe]

Damn, flanque .. I said the same thing. I did recommend Blitz because I KNOW it will do what he wants. I owned my statements about disliking DB, and I said "Try what's out there".

Don't make me off to be the bad guy when basically I said the same thing as Bryan did.

Structured programming is far easier to pick up and work with later than OOP. I can take anyone's Blitz program and without getting an MIT degree, see what they did, how they did it and why it works. I challenge someone to pick up a 3 year old OOP project and drop right back to work on it.

I'd like someone to explain to me the draw of OOP in the gaming environment that a well-written structured language can't produce. Don't copy it from an OOP advocate web page. I want your PERSONAL reasons.

[flanque]

Okay now calm down fairy boots nobody is taking a swipe at you or making you out to be the bad guy, nobody at all. This is merely a discussion on our thoughts. Perhaps I simply found KidHype's way of expressing his views pallatable, perhaps I was in a rush when I read your post, perhaps I simply didn't care anymore.

As far as OO vs structured programming goes, it really comes down to style and personal flavour. It's like saying Ford is better than Holden.. it's merely opinion I think. However having said that I strongly feel that an OO paradigm is far more managable, easier to code, and more importantly easier to conceptualise with. This is of absolute paramount when it comes to planning one's software development cycle.

Now sure you could take someone's Blitz code and see what's going on after a couple of hours, on a decent project, but hey you must admit this is hugely reliant on the fact that you know and regularly (or once were) use the language. That's like comparing project management techniques of which you know one and arguing that one method of project management is better because you can pick up the documentation and tell much quicker what's going on. Perhaps it's because you know the methodology? At least with OO "things" are represented as objects with a very well defined set of methods and properties. You can tell extremely fast what the heck the object is and what it is capable of merely by looking at the object, then viewing that in the context of the entire project by the messages sent between objects. With structured you're never sure where the heck you're going to jump or GOSUB to next. This is why they call structured programming sphagetti code.. there's no real order or standardised method of doing things. And it is for this reason and along with many more that I find structured to be too unmanagable to use when something like OO exists. The only exception to this is when, like we do at work, write code for hardware. Then given the nature of the options available structured is of use.

As far as your challenge, I cannot meet it. Not because you're right, not because one doesn't exist, but because it's 11:00pm here in Australia and I am tired. I will say however, I would much prefer to be using OO in games such as Command & Conquer where there are many many objects of which inheritence would assist the development cycle. I wouldn't want to imagine the nightmares that would exist using structured programming in that sort of gaming environment.

Perhaps as an article of interest for a Retrogaming Radio episode would be to get someone who does this stuff for a living on the show to give their experiences. The reality is that we have very little experience in this field, regardless of how many finished products one has released. We simply do not have the scale upon which to compare. Why not someone from Westwood Studios, EA, Microsoft, id Software or even Epic? Now THAT would be an article I would look forward to with much excitement.

Stay cool Shane.. hope to see you at this year's CGE. :)

[Shane R. Monroe]

Here is my point on the issue ...

People talk about inheretance and such - saying when you have tons of similar items, you can instantiate and control them better with inheretance.

Frankly, that's what a TYPE list is for (I don't think Bryan understands why I like them so much).

For C&C, I could easily have a TYPE list for each object, easily iterating through them all in groups, each one having the same logic, code control, etc. This sounds exactly like what inheretance has as a draw.

Check this out:

http://www.blitz4pros.com/commands/showcommand.php?id=21

Tell me if this doesn't sound like basically what people use inheretance for.

I will say ... APPLICATIONS are probably easier, better with OOP. Fortunately, I haven't had the need to write any outside of a handful of VB apps...

[flanque]

Well you have to look at the whole picture. The use of TYPEs or STRUCTs is indeed similar to the idea of objects. In fact I think classes were based on the idea of STRUCTs. Anyway, it's about the overall advantages. I will fall back on the managability of the project. Scale scale scale. That's the key.

Frankly I find OO projects far more managable and to understand.

I'll put it to you this way, OO is used and used a hell of a lot, in games also. There's a reason for it, other than just not being 'old school'.


So Shane, how about getting one of those guys on the show?

[Shane R. Monroe]

Anything is possible... :)

[flanque]

I eagerly await. My vote would be someone who worked on the C&C series.

[Shane R. Monroe]

Feel free to put us in touch with them, flanque ... ;)

[flanque]

I am just a mere peon in the gaming industry. Not even that. You're the phat in the gaming industry.. or at least that's what I gathered.

[Shane R. Monroe]

Fat ... yes ... connected? Nah ... Oh I know, we portrait such glamor and wealth here ... but really, honest and for true, its all for show ...

"And when we return .... more RetroGaming Radio ... Behind the Blow"

BAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAA

[flanque]

Come on Shane, use your l33t skills and uber radio guruness to get an interview for the show!!